tv Bulls and Bears FOX News July 10, 2010 10:00am-10:30am EDT
learned it from the crocodile hunter. >> we know what to do if a python falls down. >> log on to the after the show, show. see you tomorrow. >> see you tomorrow. >> new worry about the unions spending will keep lawmakers from cutting, as local governments plan on cutting hundreds of thousands of jobs to save money. we're finding out big labor is dishing out more in campaign ads than anyone. >> yes, even more than all companies put together. if they win the fight, will everyone pay? i'm brenda buttner, bulls and bears, let's get right to it. >> here they are, the bulls and bears this week, we've got gary b smith, eric bolling, and democratic strategist, julian epstein, welcome to
everybody. local governments talking about slashing budgets and unions spending millions to stop the cuts. who has it right? >> they price them out of the job market. higher wages, more benefits, job security. case in point, milwaukee school district, we find out that the city of milwaukee is broke, they went to the school, the union and they said, hey, you into he had to do is some negotiating with us on health care, the union without asking the teachers said, beat it. what happened is, milwaukee laid off 480 teachers and then, the teachers found out and they said hey, we would have negotiated, but the union said don't worry and turned, mr. barack obama, do us a favor, bail us out. that's bending and bottom line, they're using us to bail out their bad decisions. >> okay, julian, tell eric why he's wrong. >> well, for a number of reasons, but, first of all, you'd expect unions to be lobbying to protect their job,
teachers, cops, firefighters, and there's nothing particularly unusual about that, in fact, if you add in the corporations that are spending money on unions are spending far less, as a matter of fact. but, you know, look, it goes to the larger question whether aid to local and state governments is a good thing during an economic recession or jobs recession. nearly every economist. all of them described at canesion school, most republicans have supported. >> brenda: what? >> providing aid to state and local governments at the time because if you don't do it, the state has to do one of two things, cut jobs or raise taxes. this is a short-term problem that states are facing right now because of the tax revenue going down and we agree from a long-term point of view, the best thing for the economy is growth. the last thing we want to do is cut off aid to state and local governments. this is a smart thingo do, provide more aid to states at
least in the short-term. >> brenda: that's exactly the opposite of what many of us who are not canesion, i think most americans aren't. 65% of americans said they would not pay higher taxes to avoid laying off state employees. gary, what do you think of that? >> we're not paying high taxes. >> well, i it will you, julian is absolutely right in that you would expect the unions to fight for their jobs, the problem is that it's coming on the backs of everyone else as eric implied. from 1990, to 2000, the private sector jobs increased about 21%. from 2000 to 2010, private sector unemployment has dropped 3% and yet, public sector employment has grown 11%. the problem with that is all those great public sector jobs are paid by the private sector. and most of those public sector jobs create no wealth, or you know, realize little innovation and as we've seen in reports, usa today and
others, those public sector jobs cost a lot more than even equivalent private sector jobs. so, julian's great, yeah, let's grow the public sector, we've got to do it. >> not what i said. >> the problem is it's dragging us down, it's the road to economic malaise, when the public sector grows at the expense of the private sector. >> okay. >> that's not what i'm arguing. i'm arguing the opposite of that. >> you're arguing that the private sector should grow instead of the public sector? >> absolutely, absolutely, the long-term solution here to our economic problems, we need public, we need private sector growth. we do not need to grow the government beyond that which is absolutely essential. >> the point is when we're in the middle of a jobs recession and 10% unemployment, the last thing you want to do. republicans have agreed with this historically, you go back on three separate occasions the push administration supported aid to state and local governments because when you're in a situation, we have slow growth or an economic contraction, the worse thing
to do is to force the state to cut their employment roles because what you do is you cut consumer demand out in the economy, and force the states either into a position of having to raise taxes or cut spending, what we're talking about here is the federal government supporting, temporary support to the states. >> and let me, let me get to-- >> no, it's actually borrowed money. >> brenda: hold on, let me get to todd. that issue of borrowed money, the deficit, printing presses and printing money. the federal government is the only one who can do that and in fact, the state government faced a huge amount of debt in fiscal-- in this fiscal year, so, either they're going to have to cut or raise taxes, they're trying to cut the unions are fighting them. who is right? >> right. or, or the unions won't allow their salaries to stay the same. governor chris christy of new jersey said the teachers unions said they won't take the next pay increase next
year and will not have to layoff one teacher, but instead, the unions just like in milwaukee said, no, we're going to layoff teachers, we're going to take our pay hikes. i think for once, the unions can sacrifice with the rest of us. and the government spending help getting us out of the recession and europe wouldn't be the poorest country, they'd be the richest and realizing, it didn't work. you know what got us out of the last recession, the tax cut in 2003 and that got our unemployment rate to 4.5% in 2006. let's use something that works. >> the recession is-- in fact, in fact, aum of the evidence is showing the canesion plan is working. we've had a 10% shift. >> brenda: okay, okay. >> exsent for the job market and the housing market. >> brenda: hold on, let's forgot about john canes right now. we're talking right now about the government spending. spending more and giving the states more to save union jobs and that unions are fighting
states who are trying to cut, cut spending. pat, when you take a look at this, you see a longer term problem, that they are he' going to have to be longer term cuts? >> that's the larger issue and unfortunately, i disagree with julian that it's a short-term problem because the real issue is the pension benefits and retirement benefits, improving for years and years, as a result of promises made by past, you know, mayors and past governors, years ago when times were great, you know, based on the fact that the stock market would turn 10% forever and that meant they made promises that cannot be kept. the promises are physically and economically unable to be kept different the way the current pensions are structured across most states and municipalities and that needs to be dealt with much more so, you can fire people today, that's fine and then the economy gets better and the states are going to hire them back unless you have the structural pain of cutting the pensions, nothing changes. >> we have that example going
on right now as we speak this week, the state of california the governor is suing to control, control of the governor, trying to cut wages back down to minimum wage. they said no way we're not doing this. >> here is what we do, we'll bring you back to minimum wage and as soon as we're-- >> yelling at me because you sort of agree on this, eric. >> i totally agree with you. >> brenda: mr. dorsey, mr. bolling. gary b smith, in this fiscal year, states faced 140 billion dollar budget gap. that's huge. they're trying to cut. will these massive layoffs ultimately help or hurt the economy? >> no, i tell you what, because i don't think these massive layoffs are, are going to-- are going to happen. i give you one example, brenda, right here in montgomery county, maryland, where i live. they face a huge deficit for the same reason that you know, eric and pat have talked
about, these unions have so much power and so much bargaining power. well, here is what's happened. taxes are going up, property taxes of course, that's how the state and local governments are paying for this on the backs of the private people, unlike julian's fantasy world, oh, we borrow the money and create the jobs, no, it comes on the back of people like me, so, now, people like me have less money to spend and less money to put in our businesses and those firemen and teachers that, you know, we pulled the violin out for, we need to save the jobs, those jobs aren't going away. what's going to happen, is taxes are going to go up. >> i've got to wrap you up, and your-- ends your strangle holds now. it will be in med lines and neil's gang has it now. first, the fed slapping arizona with a suit to block its immigration law, did they just slap down the job recovery? what you d at this morning's meeting? that was pure poetry.
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♪ ♪ now when you open and fund an account, ou'll get 200 commission-free trades. fidelity investments. turn here. ♪ >> good morning everyone, live from america's news headquarters, i'm jamie colby. breaking right now. n.a.t.o. is confirming that six u.s. service members have been killed in separate attacks in afghanistan today. n.a.t.o. saying two service members died in attacks in the eastern part of the country. the other four were killed in a volatile southern region. their deaths are adding to the escalating violence as taliban militants pushed back against stepped up operations by coalition and afghan forces. a new attempt to cap the oil
leak in the gulf of mexico. today, engineers will continue removing the containment cap over the broken well and try to fit a tighter cap over the leak using undersea robots. if the new cap works the government says the gusher could be completely contained as early as monday. i'm jamie colby, back to bulls and bears right now only on fox. >> the fed's suit so stop arizona's illegal immigration law will slam the brakes on job creation in the u.s. that's what todd is warning, todd, what do you think? >> listen, i'll tell you two numbers brenda that people don't usually talk about. 6.8 million illegal aliens in the united states the end of 2009. the latest jobs report showed june 14.6 million americans were out of work. if you put the two numbers together you're seeing that some illegal aliens are taking away jobs from americans and also driving down wages. we're a nation of laws, i have
two friends that works, a citizen, mario three months ago and another, ivy, took her fingerprints and for citizenship. so there are laws on the books that people are becoming citizens. i think we need to protect american workers now in this jobless recovery. >> brenda: normally i would go to julian, but actually i'm going to gary b for the counter to this argument. do you agree or disagree? >> well, i tell you what, todd's arguments always make intuitive sense. they sound right when you look at the math. this is studied time and time again. i go to the fact's point. the white house council of economic advisors not even under obama, but under george bush, and forgive me for reading here, on average u.s. natives benefit from immigration because immigrants tend to compliment u.s. natives and do not substitute for them in the work place. in fact, they found that approximately 90% of u.s. foreign workers experience an increase in wages due to
immigration and i'm talking legal and illegal immigration. so if the facts found otherwise i would be fully in support of what, of arizona and what todd is saying, they just don't point that way. >> now, wait a minute, maybe they would point that way-- >> economic good times. >> exactly. eric, they might point that way, but we're in a huge recession does that change the formula? >> not at all. i've heard 12 or 13 million illegal aliens holding jobs that 14 million americans need and also, wages are lower because they're taking a lower wage for the same job, and an illegal will come over and carpentry work at four or $5 an hour, and also, we're doing something very dangerous here, we're sending a federal to every illegal alien thinking about coming over the border right now and saying, let me see how this plays out. the fed is suing arizona if this thing flies for the feds, why not go. you could have three or four million immediately coming over saying why shouldn't i
come over? it's a free ride. >> brenda: okay, julian, do you think that the doj lawsuit against this law will help or hurt the job market? >> well, i actually agree with gary and this has been studied extensetively, including by leading conservative think tanks, like cato all said on balance immigrants are very good for the economy, particularly in-- >> legal. >> brenda: legal or illegal? >> immigration period. now, we would all agree there's a strong need for immigration reform. no question about that, no question we need to stem illegal immigration for a whole host of reasons, national security included, but the arizona law, is the law that's clearly targeted at hispanics, just clearly targeted at hispanics and it places enforcement of immigration responsibilities on local law enforcement who have no training, no knowledge of immigration laws and-- >> we're not-- >> and did. >> brenda: we have this debate. we're not talking about that right now. we're talking about what this
means, the job market. pat, actually you don't know if-- >> i think i answered that. i think i answered that by saying, look, this thing has been studied to death, overwhelmingly the impact on immigration over this country has been positive economically. >> brenda: now we're moving on and i'm going to pat. pass, does this have an impact? >> what he said and what he said (laughter) >> i'm going to make two points, one is that i fail to see the exodus of, you know, unemployed gm workers from flint streaming to california to pick strawberries, so, you know, todd's math don't work. the second point i'm going to make in terms of nal-- disagree with eric on this one. the world where the most scarce resource is human capital not financial capital. what we're saying is america is not the place you thought. you mr. highly intelligent, legal or illegal, immigrant you could be next on the list.
>> brenda: todd, what do you say to that. >> we have a nation, we're not going to make immigration any harder. nobody is for that. >> you appear to be. >> no, i'm for legal immigration. >> me, too. >> brenda: i think everybody here is for legal immigration. >> the laws-- >> the question is-- >> so i don't see the problem. >> therefore, it gets-- guest worker program. >> brenda you started with the premise, is this going to affect jobs. i think what julian and i said, this has been studied. and in good times and bad dfrjts. >> brenda: eric the last word. >> how in the world can 14 million americans shall out ever work and 11 million illegal aliens and-- get the jobs. >> brenda: all right. there we go. thanks, guys. some say they got us into the housing mess, but that these
two government lenders just rescued taxpayers from an even bigger one? the new loans the white house is backing that fannie and freddie are now bucking. ♪ [ deb ] people don't just come to ge capital for money. they come to us for help. at ge capital, we've been financing taylor guitars for over eight years, helng them build a strong dealer network. bringing music to people... i like that. ♪ ♪ [ bob ] i didn't know you could play i didt either. ♪
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too risky for them or for the rest of us? >> too risky for everyone, brenda. look, the government needs to get out of the pushing us into home ownership business. this is the same thing we went through last time and it's one of the causes of the economic collapse. but there's an even bigger problem here. even if you said oh, the government should have said, this is just one more area that's going to be rife with fraud. we have many, many examples, forget about medicare which wastes probably 100 billion dollars a year in fraud. let's just take the home energy assistance program. you know, brenda it's been very successful. they gave out 3.9 million dollars in aid to dead people. they gave out 671,000 dollars fraudulently to government employees, the u.s. postal employees have been involved in this. you've got a government cache of money here, a slush fund, if you will, with typical lousy government oversight, it's going to be wasteful and harmful and the government
needs to get out of this, fannie and freddie are right. >> brenda: what do you think, julian. >> i totally agree with gary on the medicare and medicaid fraud issue, something we need to address. the oil industry, natural gas, coal industry, get tens of billions worth of subsidies every year, the old energy, old technology. the idea na the government shouldn't be in a minimal way, what this is, government-backed mortgages on energy, green solar panels. given the needs to have multiple sources of energy are-- >> the people saying it are government-backed entities. this is fannie and freddie mac saying, too risky. >> and they took all the junk, all the garbage no one else want $, 35, 7, trillion dollar worth of bad questionable home loans on the books. when they say this is too risky, i think you about thor
listen. it's like lindsay lohan saying that cocktail is it a little too strong for me. >> brenda: todd, hey, that's pretty good, working lindsey in here. okay. todd, what do you say? >> yeah, i mean, the problem with solar and wind, all the wind power does is kill birds. so, finally freddie and fannie clued into reality. >> brenda: do you agree with fannie and freddie on this one, pat? too risky. >> the loans, not because they're too risky, risky implies they will not get paid back. that's not the issue. the issue is they're called first lien loan in front of the existing debt holder. nobody who lends money wants somebody else stepping in front of them in line. and that's the risk of not getting paid. >> brenda: julian we thank you for joining us as always and one city trying to ban pet sails sales. how can you say no to these
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>> brenda: todd, bull or bear? >> false. if the unemployed people, you know, turning to crime which they don't, this would be a greater. >> brenda: and your prediction. >> i'm hot on child, hot on chile. go with a country that has pro business policy. >> brenda: pat, you like it or not? >> charges 65 basis points for an index fund. >> brenda: your prediction. >> mirror genetics, helps to find out if the genes are more susceptible to breast or ovarian cancer. i think can double. >> brenda: gary b, you like it. >> slam-dunk. >> you go out to 2013, i like just about everything, yes, i like this one. >> brenda: and eric, your prediction. >> stop selling pets, are they he kidding me? look at these beautiful little dogs. oh, my goodness, brenda, who are the wonderful-- >> this is sissy and